Pope John Paul II visited the United States in August 1993, choosing Denver, Colorado as the place to hold his rally. The following year, father Malachi Martin talked with Canadian radio host Bernard Janzen about the event. Two things to keep in mind:
- Denver airport is creepy in a number of ways, from its broken-cross site plan to its demonic horse sculpture that literally killed the artist that created it. So naturally, I wonder if that city was chosen by the Pope as a battlefield in the spiritual war.
- The Pope’s meeting with then-President Bill Clinton was tense. Normal diplomatic protocols notwithstanding, the two knew each other as enemies. In a later conversation with Art Bell, Fr. Martin would let it be inferred that Clinton is “perfectly possessed,” a term that describes the state of a human being’s total and willing surrender to demonic possession, with all of the worldly benefits that this confers.
Those of you who tipped me off to the Transcript function in Youtube, thank you. I still had to do a lot clean-up by hand, but at least didn’t have to type all of that myself.
What follows is a transcript of a 16-minute excerpt from Martin’s two-and-a-half hour talk with Janzen in 1994. Martin’s discussion over a quarter-century ago is highly relevant to what’s bubbling up to the surface today. [LINK]:
FATHER MALACHI MARTIN [1:30 min.]: We both have agreed, when we are talking a moment ago, that what is going on at the present moment is a real war. It’s a war of Spirits and any man or woman who does not know that, does not know that there’s a real war going on, with battles being fought in various places: in the boardrooms and in the bedrooms; around in the streets; in the factories; in our parliaments; in our legislatures; in the Congress of the United States and in the Parliament in Canada; and all over the world, he who doesn’t realize there’s a battle between good and evil — a war and various battles of that war being fought — then they’d better sit down and take a good glass of cold water and rethink what is happening around them with their children, and their wives, and their husbands, and their friends, and their businesses, and their country, and their cities, and their populations. What is happening.
So much so, that I feel – and this is not preaching, Bernard, this is straight from the shoulder, as they say – I feel that we should mentally and spiritually put this conversation under the blessing of Michael the Archangel. And as you know, his central shrine in the Catholic Church, and in the the world, is in a place called Monte Gargano in Italy, where he appeared and where there was a Basilica dedicated to him and which still remains the center of devotion to Michael the Archangel. And reason I invoke him is this: that he is, according to all Christian tradition, he is the general in charge of everything. He is the boss of all bosses, as God’s all the angels. And in the nine choirs of angels, Michael’s word is the word of our Lord Jesus Christ Himself. So, let us put that under his guidance.
And you know, every time you say the Our Father, the first three invocations, you’re using those in unison with the three of the seven Seraph in front of God. And when we say, “Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name,” it’s the Sanctifier amongst the Seraphs who is talking with us. And “Thy kingdom come” is the Proclaimer, he’s the Seraph Proclaimer. And “Thy will be done on Earth” is the Legislator amongst the Seraphs. Michael even dominates those very privileged beings who are always in front of the throne of God.
So in the name of God, and the name of Michael the Archangel, and Our Lady the Queen of Heaven and the mother of all the living, that starts good discussion and communicates sunlight and some guidance to the hundreds of thousands who really depend on the apostolate of the Word, the word of God.
All right. Now, it does seem to me, Bernard, and I think we both agree that we must start with the essentials and then go up to the wider field. I think that in the last five years [PA: 1989 – 1994] the most significant event that has taken place is the recent trip of His Holiness to Denver. What do you think of the visit to Denver? Did you follow it?
BERNARD JANZEN: I followed it. There seemed to be a large turnout of people. All the media attention focused on the confrontation between John Paul II and the Clinton administration. Perhaps you could begin there.
FR. MARTIN: Yeah. Well, there is a preliminary remark to be made about the Denver meeting. Whether you like him or not, whether you hate or love the Catholic Church, whether you are religious-minded or not, there’s only one man, and one man only on the face of this Earth — and it’s not the President of these United States, this superpower. It’s nobody. It’s no film star, it’s no millionaire or billionaire. There’s only one man who could invade a country like John Paul II did. Stabbed at the center of it. Be greeted by at least 500,000 people. Be the focus of the media one way or the other for the four or five days he was here. Speak in front of the President of the United States. And give out a doctrine which was repellent to that man in his foreign policy, in his domestic policy, and get away with it. What man could do that on the face of the Earth. Only John Paul II.
And therefore those who, like Stalin, always say “There’s no power left in the church, how many divisions has the Pope got?” The famous question Stalin asked of Churchill about that the Pope in the war. The answer is: what power has this man got. Wisely, just like the Dalai Lama, they can’t neglect him. That means there’s a resident power there and it’s not guns. It’s not money. It’s not political power, because where on the face of the Earth today is the church politically powerful? Nowhere.
It is this moral stature, this privileged position that the Pope of Rome, the 264th successor of Peter the Apostle occupies. And willy-nilly, they have to take account of it. You know how many journalists were accredited to the Denver thing? Eleven thousand. From all over the world. It’s a desire of every leader to have such popularity. Even in such a short time to stand and be listened-to by three and a half billion people all over the world at the same time that 500,000 are in front of him, all worshipping? No, no, no, we must regard the Denver thing as a triumph in its own genre.
Now, of course, it was hoopla. Of course, it was circus. Of course, it was PR. And by the way the organization must have been tremendous because there was about 10,000 fainted finally with overheating, and the cold and hunger etc. But the thing was so perfectly organized, and everybody received Holy Communion at the end of it all, at the end of the Mass. In addition to all that, as you know, for one whole year we were very apprehensive of what would happen at Denver because we know that thousands of dollars were poured from West Coast and from New York into organizing a counter-demonstration.
JANZEN: It did not succeed.
FR. MARTIN: Nothing happened. They found they were up against that peculiar thing called the spirit and they decided to retire from the field. To leave it alone. There were some demonstrations but nothing, nothing like we were…
JANZEN: Nothing significant.
FR. MARTIN: Nothing that we were apprehensive of. Because there were threats, even extending to his life, to the Pope’s life. But nothing happened because there was this manifestation of Spirit. And when you saw him standing on the podium — whether at Stapleton Airport being greeted by President William Jefferson Clinton, “Bill,” or whether you saw him standing on the altar at the final Mass — here was an old man of 73. A shake in his left hand which his doctors can’t control, inhabited by a what they call a [unclear] virus which they can’t analyze, who’s already undergone one operation for cancer, who is obviously old. And a shadow of the former ruddy self he was when he was made Pope in 1978. A weak voice. Not a strong voice, and nothing exclamatory, nothing inflammatory coming forth. Still, commanding the respect of these people. You know, at the Mass, at the consecration.
This is a huge place where they celebrated. This is field in Denver. There was one sound. You could hear a pin drop during that time. And that’s the silence of adoration and veneration because the majority people that did believe they were in the presence of the Lord Jesus of Heaven and Earth and His only vicar on the face of the Earth.
So Denver, no matter how you look at it, was a success from the point of view of publicity. And of spreading the idea that there is a testimony amongst the sons and daughters of men that can’t be obliterated by no matter how much opposition there is. So it was a trial. Now, but that does focus on John Paul II and his Church, and I think that’s where we should start.
Because if you look at this Pope, in and of itself, hasn’t struck you, Bernard, that all he can do finally is the papal trips. He can’t reform his Church. He can’t uproot the Satanism now rampant in his Church. The homosexuality still continues. Master clergy, the pedophilia, the amount of people going to Mass is not going up. The amount of people observing the law is not going up. But he does have the power of these papal trips, papal journeys, in where there’s a manifestation and a testimony to the Truth. That’s all he is doing at the present moment. He is issuing letters and there’s a vast underground of pious people who are following with their prayers and the devotion of the Rosary.
We can’t say it’s growing; we can’t say it’s diminishing. It exists. There’s an underground, but at the same time there is this poor, beleaguered, tattered [unclear] Church. Its organization. So, we have to deal with John Paul II and his Church. I think that’s the first thing we deal with because he is an enigma for many people. He’s an enigma. A lot of people feel abandoned by him. He appoints Bishops that are unworthy of being Bishop. We know they are. And we can give their names out over the public radio because everybody knows who they are. He has Cardinals who are not really with him, who are in opposition to him, who want him to resign, want to get rid of him, have another Pope to their liking. He is not liked by secular governments because he preaches a hard doctrine about a population control, about birth control, and about abortion.
JANZEN: About abortion, where this conflict that we heard between Clinton and the Pope…
FR. MARTIN: That’s right. And fetal research. And the extraordinary about the Denver visit was that no matter what the media did, no matter what they did to take the light off John Paul II and his message and place it on the squabble between us and the secular powers over abortion, contraception — it didn’t succeed. For instance, the newsmen held a held a news conference and they had a group of young people from all over the world there. And they tried to get them wild up on the question of abortion and contraception, male and female priesthood, and women’s ordination. And the young people said, “We’re not interested, the church has spoken.”
And it’s all over, the media failed completely, and they did simply withdrew. They couldn’t understand it. They can’t understand it, and the fact was that these theologically unwashed media people, who are trying to claw their way at a 2,000-year-old Church, and they got nowhere. The Spirit of God was with those young people.
And similarly, after all the wave of articles emphasizing the the amount of Catholics who commit abortion and contraception, the amount of homosexuals that are in the church and the pedophilia, heaping and heaping all the offenses of Catholics in a huge pyre in front of the world. The fact is, the people stood back and said, “No, this is not the issue; there’s something else going on here, we don’t know.” And John Paul II himself, I must say, in his press, they’re very bad propagandists for themselves and perhaps that’s like Rhett Butler, he doesn’t give a damn. Perhaps it’s enough for him to state the truth and pass on because he is a good Pope. But so Denver does focus on the one man who is a key today.
You know, Bernard, I’ve often speculated that if the Papacy disappeared, if the enemies of the Papacy got their will and wiped out the Papacy, and made him just another Bishop in Rome, squabbling with other Bishops as they do in the Anglican Church, and the Orthodox churches, within a short time all Christianity will disappear because then the lodestone, the Lodestar for all churches is their difference or their coincidence with the Roman Catholic Church. Wipe that out — a big black hole opens immediately for every other Christian sect.
JANZEN: Let’s just stop here for a moment. What exactly is the Pope? Is he a chairman of the board?
FR. MARTIN: No, he’s not. The Pope himself is the 264th Pope and the 263rd successor to Peter. And Catholics have this one thing, which everybody else covets: they are the only church, the only Christian group, who have a line — an unbroken line — of men going right back through history 2,000 years to Jesus of Nazareth, who spoke to the first pope, Peter. And no matter what their failings were, no matter how much they neglected the Church in ways, no matter how many imprudences they committed, all of them, they are historically connected with Jesus in His mortal existence.
We’re the only people with that, and that’s something we can be proud of. We have that despite all our weaknesses and failures, we still have that connection. And you must have that historical connection. If you start in the 16th century, or the 17th century, or the 18th century, or the 12th century: bye, bye birdie. Your representative did not speak to Jesus. He didn’t confer on you this, that or the other.
And you know, there are people today, some Protestant bishops and some Orthodox, who will say, “Well, why don’t we now perform a common sort of a prayer, where we all can gather no matter what our differences are theologically, and let us reform it.” The answer always is, Christ has not spoken to them. To none of them did He say, “Thou art Peter. Thou art a rock. On you I build my church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. You will last forever. And whosever sins you lose, they’re forgiven. Whoever’s sins you don’t forgive, they’re not forgiven in Heaven either.”
So we have this we have this advantage. That doesn’t make us saints, Bernard. By any manner of means. So, the Pope is the representative of that. And you know, the Church has a law in its canon law, repeated always in all canon law, all the various codes of law which says: “pontifex maximus a nemine iudicatur.” The Supreme Pontiff can be judged by nobody. He can’t be called into a courtroom and tried by anybody. There’s nobody fitting judge him, and there’s a very good reason for that.
Because you know, you and I, all our lives, we’ve had someone above us. I had my father, mother. You had your father. We had the teachers in school. When I became a Jesuit I had my Jesuit superiors. [PA: disillusioned by Vatican II, Fr. Martin asked to be released from certain aspects of his Jesuit vows in 1964]. And we had the parish priests and the bishops. There’s always somebody higher. There’s only one man on the face of this Earth who was nobody higher. And that is the Pope. And he stands with his back to the people he’s the head of and faces the abyss of God. He must answer God. It’s a terrible responsibility.
Now, if any man has not been in that position, he can’t judge the Pope finally. He can produce an opinion, he can say “Well, I think this is wrong, this is bad, blah blah blah, he committed an imprudence there, he committed a sin there,” that’s all possible because all men are mortal, including the Pope. He can make mistakes. But as Pope, nobody has this responsibility of facing God for the people. He is the Vicar of Christ.
And see, we must remind ourselves that Christ is sweet, and loving, and merciful, and forgiving, and pleading. He wants our love. But he also has dignity and majesty. And remember that the Scripture is terrible about Christ when it comes to punishment. It says that in the last day, when the Antichrist is reigning, Christ will come on Earth and destroy him. And the Scripture is so contemptuous. He doesn’t destroy him with fire. Or with lightening. He doesn’t make the earth swallow him. Scripture says merely: “spiritu ore sui.” He’s going to blow him away like a bit of dirt.
— Back to me, PA. As it goes with transcribing Father Martin’s radio dialogues, it’s difficult to settle on the point at which to cut off the transcription. It’s worth your time to play the video and continue listening past the 17:17 minute mark where the above-typed text ends.