The Discovery of the Gamma Personality

“Gamma” is a rank on Vox Day’s theory of male sociosexual hierarchy, which he developed in 2011. There was previously no word for the personality type, even though Gamma males have always been around: the socially and sexually repellent without necessarily being low on the totem pole or physically unattractive, the resentful and depressive, often shrewd or intelligent but also self-sabotaging. There were always words that got at the aspects of the Gamma male, but not at the clinical phenomenon itself:

Immature, delusional, prideful, callow, dishonest, narcissistic, unreliable, weak, passive-aggressive, backstabbing, effeminate, unpopular, ass-kisser, coward, creep, nerd, pussy.

The Bible’s Book of Proverbs [ESV here] nails the Gamma’s incontinence, using the word “fool”:

  • A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.
  • A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.
  • The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.
  • A fool’s lips walk into a fight, and his mouth invites a beating.
  • If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet.
  • [A fool] is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, “I am only joking!”

“Gamma” puts those qualities into a recognizable composite.

A great Gamma character in classic fiction is the first-person narrator in Fyodor Dostoyevsky’s “Notes from the Underground.” What struck me about him is the way he humiliated his regular prostitute because he was in the position where he could. The novel ends wildly, with the author himself stepping into his own novel to shut him up.

There is also a significance to defining the Gamma personality that goes beyond practical psychology: it counters the subversion created by an influential Frankfurt School book that came out in 1950, “The Authoritarian Personality” by Theodor Adorno et al.


The Authoritarian Personality “invented a set of criteria by which to define personality traits, ranked these traits and their intensity in any given person on what it called the ‘F scale’ (F for fascist).” The personality type Adorno et al. identified can be defined by nine traits that were believed to cluster together as the result of childhood experiences. These traits include conventionalism, authoritarian submission, authoritarian aggression, anti-intellectualism, anti-intraception, superstition and stereotypy, power and “toughness”, destructiveness and cynicism, projectivity, and exaggerated concerns over sex. [Infogalactic]

Shaming the Free World as “fascist” was a blow to the gut. The message encountered no resistance on the western side of the Iron Curtain, exposing countries to the most virulent, slow-release strains of Marxism. We see its apotheosis today, with the rape of Germany.

The propaganda that purported to be social science pathologized natural and honorable male behavior that thrives in an uninfected society:

  • The Delta is pathological in following his duty as immediate protector and provider.
  • The Beta is pathological in his loyalty to the captains of the community.
  • The Alpha is pathological in assuming his responsibility as a leader.

Vox’s sociosexual hierarchy, with “Gamma” as its most original component, reverses the arrow of pathology, pointing it, correctly, to personalities that are in fact unhealthy. Hating the “authoritarian personality” is the Gamma’s cover for his Alpha ambition without the Alpha goods. It is the unwanted boarder’s lust for the goods of his host.

(A discussion of the hierarchy.)

82 thoughts on “The Discovery of the Gamma Personality

  1. Adorno was what happens when a groundbreaking natural musicologist eschews his calling merely because there are some political personalities on the world political stage that he happens to vicariously find disagreeable. His commentary on Beethoven is incredible, while his awkwardly embematic response to the war (melodiously) put him in league with just a ‘nostrum branch’ of the same despotic allonyms he imagined he was thwarting.

  2. Asian males are very good examples of gamma: passive aggressive sneaky ingrates seething with hostility but always asking open questions in a bid to appear open minded.

    I know one typical gamma. A few years back I organized a party and the gamma’s wife offered me venue at a very good price. In exchange I offered her complimentary entry. She couldn’t make it but asked I would invite her gamma husband. I loathed him but figured ok.

    Gamma came to our party with a dj well known for his special musical and dance abilities. Gamma came free, dances and drinks free, watches the performance free and leaves near the end without thanking me.

    He goes home and posts a passive aggressive attack on my event and performer. When I call him out on it he insists he can express an opinion. When I confronted him further he pulled it down. He never invited me to dj his own events after that. He was also very careful around me not to say anything that might set me off…

  3. Hope this isn’t off topic, and speaking of Asians: A good line from Linh Dinh, breakfasting in Viet Nam:

    “food choices range from humbling to humiliating, but hey, we’re all here to be put in our places, so if it hasn’t happened to your strutting, haughty self, consider yourself cursed.”

    He is published at Unz. He is a genius of sorts, for what it matters.

  4. Pingback: The Discovery of the Gamma Personality | Reaction Times

  5. The VD hierarchy has been very useful to me in understanding people.

    It’s a shame the sigma status is such a can of worms, because it is a real phenomenon that helps some men find contentment with themselves.

  6. I don’t know, somehow these categories aren’t visible in my life. These sound like something that stop working after 25 years old or so. These feel like high school categories, maybe college. For example in the Gamma category low worth is combined with high ambition. What about low worth and low ambition? What about low ambition and unknown worth? I cannot even decide what category I am, for example, in the Delta section you just assume people like chatting and going to parties. I don’t think so – at 25 years old some do, the rest feel they must pretend to, at 40 I see people having a career and family they feel grateful they no longer need to look extroverted and popular and generally there is no chatting where I work, nobody wants to.

    As for Gamma being the opposite of the Authoritarian Personality of that book, I agree with that, as in, if you define gamma as alpha ambition but not ability (but what is someone with say beta ability and delta ambition?), there is certainly that very annoying type who always likes to play the rebel because he sees it as a personal insult to be given orders, yet generally is not very useful on his own. In Monthy Python And The Holy Grail, the anarchocommunist peasants who yelled oppression when looked at them cross-eyed were a good comical example.

    But again you are comparing ambition with three kinds of duty, loyalty, responsibility. All are active traits. I look around and see seriously neither of these… people just floating through life, having neither of these active traits.

    You see the root problem with the whole thing is that it would make sense if the world was organized in a very leftist way, like meritocratic with “equal chances” in which case a social position would correlate to one’s inner virtues or the lack of them. But it is not so, was never so and will not be so. Teachers (where I live) tend to be absolute losers willing to endure constant abuse for peanut level pay and yet they are the first authority figure a child sees. Then you start working at some widget factory and if you are lucky the boss is someone promoted because he makes really nice widgets and if you are not lucky it is the owner’s nephew but very few got promoted for leadership skills, and Alpha and leadership skills are not even the same thing. Why? Because the toughness of the Alpha is only useful in life-and-death, brutally competitive situations. At a typical lazy modern business? We tend to get leaders whose leadership skills is going hush-hush, calm down and don’t rock the boat. An Alpha leader would mostly scare modern urban folks who live their lives in a comfortable cocoon.

    And this is also how all the self-improvement stuff on PUAish blogs is weird. Improving personal value does not improve your social values. The sexual maybe. Improving your social value – schmoozing with bigwigs – does not improve your social value. The sexual maybe.

  7. A lot of words, a lot of questions, Dividualist. If you haven’t, read VD’s 2011 original I linked above. He frames it in notch count and party-setting in that post, but the Alpha Game blog has many follow-on discussions about the sociosexual hierarchy.

    It’s applicable at any age, in any social context. My 2016 post, which I also link above, might be helpful.

    I coined “Alpha ambition without the Alpha goods” as shorthand for the Gamma’s behavior being driven by a sense of entitlement to unearned social status… and everyone else’s resulting attitude toward him.

  8. Ugh…. every blonde ‘Thot’ woman of the ‘right’ is taking us for fools. They have EACH been romantically linked to a black, mulatto, or brown man (sometimes all of the above) :

    Ann Coulter
    Laura Ingraham
    Tomi Lahren
    Lauren Southern

    Do your own Google searches to verify if you doubt this.

    Captain Capitalism pointed this out before. They are merely duping right-wing guys into making them famous and wealthy.

  9. That reads like a troll comment. You’ve seen those mini-essays like “Indian medical student taken down by SJWs!” or “Forswear white women. Here is why I only date Asian girls!”

    (If you haven’t seen them here, it’s because my spam filter catches them or if not, I delete them.)

    At a glance, an inexperienced person misses the obvious uncanny valley in its style and wonders “Someone put some effort into this, but it’s way off topic, where did this outburst come from?” And then you see the same comment on another blog.

    The one above is not as elaborate as in my other examples, but it has the same copy-paste feel. I’ll leave it up though. Yeah, whatever. Nobody should be getting excited about attention-whore thots. It’s lame to look for validation of your politics in hot female internet personalities. White babies or GTFO.

    Related, memes of hot chicks with guns. There are two kinds of men. Ones who get excited by them, and ones who’d shoo her “Hands off the big boy tools.”

  10. Men who know about guns likely see an accident waiting to happen. Responsible gun owners don’t take selfies.

  11. Men who know about guns likely see an accident waiting to happen. Responsible gun owners don’t take selfies.

    That’s a fair statement. On the other hand everyone likes to social media and youtube these days.

    I saw a good youtube video from this guy who was a complete badass, on our side. He was like 55 or 60 years, and the type who you see out in the country around here, of those not fallen to various forms of nihilism. He started out his video doing some selfies with his pump shotgun. That gun looked a lot more military and technical than your typical Remington.

    Will post later if it comes back to mind.

  12. That reads like a troll comment.

    It absolutely does. I have the instinctual habit that is hard to bypass, of taking everything “said” at face value.

    But those are AI scripts, almost 100 per cent for sure.

  13. people just floating through life, having neither of these active traits. [ … ]

    Why? Because the toughness of the Alpha is only useful in life-and-death, brutally competitive situations. At a typical lazy modern business?

    This is a good observation. The categories of the Hierarchy are not themselves fleshed out and active and deployed, in a situation such as we have with modern day clownworld where men are not actively working together toward a common goal.

  14. In a typical modern work environment, many of the workers are not going to do the best job they can, because they won’t be compensated for it.

    In the employ of a bigger organization, your efforts will be appreciated by those of your coworkers whose load you end up doing, and you will get some status from them and that counts for a lot, but in the overall organization, good luck.

  15. “your efforts will be appreciated by those of your coworkers whose load you end up doing, and you will get some status from them and that counts for a lot”

    The well known flip of which is being resented for working too hard and making the others look unproductive by comparison.

    In modern there is a strong incentive to not stick out, ie the hierarchy is discouraged.

    The counterpoint to that is simply that some people will not be denied their awesomeness. Ecce Homo

  16. This comment will not be interesting to those who don’t follow CH, but one of the characters there PA used as an example of Alpha is trav777.

    trav777 in a recent subthread said he maxed out one of the IQ tests. I replied that the pre re-normed SAT is THE standard iq metric for Americans, and asked him his score. But being a hard charging Alpha, trav777 probably doesn’t see my reply and if he does, will not duane to respond.

    I fixate some on iq. It is quite a boast for someone to say he maxes out on an iq test. In my not completely ignorant opinion, iq maxes out around 160 and above that is not worth much unless you are active in super high challenging fields like chess and advanced level technology and science.

    trav777 also says he is “published” in AI programming research; that he hacks through the jungles of Central America w/ a machete; and of course, eats 400 dollar plates of pasta; beds stewardesses of all races at his will and pleasure; and is something of an expert in most forms of small arms and hand-to-hand combat.

    He is, Ethan Hunt. To think, he duanes to share his knowledge and wisdom w/ us.

  17. I’m sure there are some women out there who do have an true interest in guns. It’s probably about the same amount of women who have an interest in cars. They aren’t the type of women to pose in a bikini or sexy outfit, and you probably wouldn’t want to see them do that anyway. Sexy girls with guns is straight up attention whoring with the added negative of making gun owners seem unserious.

  18. “he duanes to share his knowledge and wisdom w/ us.”

    I’m probably the most illiterates commenter on the interwebz and even I know how to spell “deign”.

    or is this some kind of interwebs-speak that I somehow missed? could not find this application of “Duane” on urban dictionary. 🤔

  19. It’s a Sopranos joke. Tony made that misspeak at least once.

    Tony’s character frequently missed words along those lines. The intimation was that they were symptomatic of something perhaps Alzheimer’s.

  20. Elk, there is a Sopranos episode in which Tony and some woman go to the desert and take mushrooms, then trip while watching the sunrise or sunset. I haven’t seen that episode or know enough to find a video of that scene if it exists. Does it ring a bell?

  21. that’s funny. that’s how my family speaks. we just make up words as needed. I believe that’s the high IQ thing to do.

  22. Many of the comments under the article are saying things like, “I’m a liberal who hates Trump and I still don’t believe this happened.”

  23. Many of the comments under the article are saying things like, “I’m a liberal who hates Trump and I still don’t believe this happened.”


    So we’re to believe that just as this Wakandan walks out for Subway at 2am there happen to be two white male Trump supporters there who not only recognize him, but who have ski masks and bleach in their possession? And they attack him with the bleach but then run away for no apparent without leaving a visible scratch on him, screaming MAGA slogans all the while?

    There’s not more than 3 white people in this country who know who this guy is. That crap TV show he’s on is watched by like a 3% white audience, the rest is black. And nobody even cares that he’s gay (or even knew).

    And this is in CHICAGO, of all places. (noted abode of white guy street toughs spewing MAGA-isms). And how cold is it in Chicago at 2am in January on an average night? 10-12 degrees?

    Even the Wakandans take a break from their outdoor Chicago crime during the coldest months, then they fire up their shootin’ and lootin’ with those first few warm weekends in late spring.

    Hoax all the way.

  24. Oh, and the MAGA fanatic attackers had a rope, too.

    He forgot to mention the Southern accents on the part of the attackers. He’ll probably add that in the coming days as he tours the country.

  25. “…the MAGA fanatic attackers had a rope, too.”

    Must be those headstrong applied anthropology grad students at Univ of Chicago.

  26. [Special Person] bluecheck calls Starbucks music “unbelievably, painfully white.”

    Two things. One, the days of “white” as a punchline we’re good sports about are gone. The days of being good sports, period, are done.

    Two, the Left is working hard to drive the hipster to the Right. If there is one thing you don’t fuck with, it’s with a pierced-face’s indie music.

  27. The local hipster station is 89.3 the Current.

    It’s publicly funded and in the format of a alternative rock indy music scene. The DJ’s get paid with tax money then again maybe they are volunteers.

    In any case they play really good scenester White music. They don’t quite get to the whatever tf it’s called Neo Folk but it might as well be. (There is a scene around Neo Folk. Renegade Radio talks about this. They say it is bs and co-opted, but they may be purity spiraling.)

    But what’s emotionally painful is when our publicly funded radio insists on being inclusive and has to mix it up with something to balance out too much Whiteness. It’s so awkward that you literally have to change the station.

    There’s that thing when black singers do the Barry White thing where they make grunting noises as if they are in coitus, and to the beat of the song. It’s insufferable. If you are some great R&B singer perhaps that vocal device can be mixed in to good effect here and there, but otherwise that was peak blackness and should have gone out with Barry White.

  28. Real music is part of culture and an expression of the vital energy of uh, a People.

    Without that Peoplehood thing, it doesn’t come to be. Without that peoplehood thing it’s so much ornamentation and that at best.

    Just about everyone likes to go to a Festival. In fact they even have a grocery store called Festival.

    But in a festival it’s about doing ring dances and getting in tune and in time with the people who live around you, and singing the old songs and the new ones with a twist, was the best way to do that.

    When is the last time you went to a festival? Did you see Zeppelin in 69? I was there, man. I was there

  29. When is the last time you went to a festival.

    The closest I have been was watching Fellowship of the Ring Chapter 1 where they do some ring dancing to that upbeat tune with the syncopated melody on the penny whistles. Frodo did a convincing job acting as a goy, or not? Discuss.

    Samwise was forced to dance with what’s-her-name Goldilocks. Hobbits were “as a rule” good-natured rather than beautiful, but Goldilocks had a bit of an elven cast to her.

    What was my point. It would cool if there were something of a cohesive place where you could go sing the old songs. That’s what people want to do. I am trying to make it happen in my own life, to some whatever extent, but it’s challenging especially around here in Nordicville where people aren’t very inclined.

    I was in the South once, eating a lunch meal with group I was with and the alpha dog was telling a story and part of the story came to a song. So to do the story he started foot-stompin and clappin and did a verse. This was in a restaurant with other people and no one batted an eye.

  30. — When is the last time you went to a festival?


    As long as there is the discipline to not invite mudsharks with their black dates.

  31. I went down to the Creek twice last summer with the old uke.

    In the 70s down at this same place there woulda been lotsa youth with flowers in their hair. They would have been smoking marijuana and drinking beer. They still do that down there sometimes but the point being it’s a different scene.

    I heard on the radio yesterday driving around in the bitter cold, Carry On (my wayward son) by Kansas. That song is the epic American version of the all time rock ballad.

    Carry on, you will always remember!
    Carry on, nothing equals the splendor!
    Heaven waits for you

    All the lyrics are over the top in their grandiloquence but at the same time utterly sincere. Carry on, my wayward son …

  32. The one song I really nailed (didn’t actually nail it) in those multi-hour Creek jam sessions, was Bury Me Not on the Lone Prairie.

    It’s a classic cowboy song. In the 19th century, all the cowboys knew this song. Neil Young did a rewrite of it.

    It’s really sad lyrics. This cowboy catches cold and dies and asks not to be buried on the prairie but instead in the churchyard by his father.

    But they don’t have time or something and so just lay him in a narrow grave 3 x 6 and say a prayer.

    It’s traditionally done in two chords, D 6 and E-minor 7 which would seem to make it a simple song and it is; but to bring it “into time” is the trick.

  33. I could do 5 of the 7 verses of that song from memory. I probably know a 100 songs by memory, most of the verses and chords.

    Singing them, sitting down there by the creek playing a vintage baritone uke. Sometimes the passers-by will freak out some. They have never heard sung the old songs, with feeling.

    Bunch of drones, all of us. Where’s the vodka?

  34. Daily Stormer article by Pomidor Quixote

    18-Year-Old Woman Falls Pregnant a Month After Meeting 51-Year-Old Boyfriend

    The featured comments are interesting in that they reveal the problem of the White generations not getting along for being in competition over the women.

    The old men say that they should get to use their advanced power levels to attract whomsoever they can.

    The young men say that that’s not really fair because what are they supposed to do for the next 20 years, masturbate?

    I have a solution. There is one category of man. Let’s call it “man”.

    The men compete for women’s consent and affection. Same as it ever was.

    Disclosure: I am gen x and looking for a woman.

    That said, I side with the perspective presented by the article which is pro old man, as opposed to the commenters and readers which is not.

    The reason to side w/ the article is that the article is a REACTION in the sense that the politics of this our thing is REACTIONARY.

    Ffs no one is saying that young men shouldn’t get young women. That’s the prevailing opinion!

    The solution as stated above is OBVIOUS: All qualifying “men” to compete for sexually mature women: same as it ever was.

    The reaction of the young men over there is whinge. No one is saying that they don’t get to cast their dicks into the ring. They can play to their advantages which is youth and vigor, and old men will play to theirs which is status and having been proven.

    The meta point is how the generational conflict rears it head at the slightest call.

  35. One angle the anti old men commenters take, is saying that the argument in favor of old men getting to play for young men due to their status, slants toward hypergamy.

    That’s the only argument they have, as I see it.

    And said argument is 100 per cent a straw man. Because no one is arguing for hypergamy.

    All sexually available women are up for grabs, to the men in their tribe to win their hand. AND under the conditions of one man one woman.

    Plenty of women will might prefer younger promising men; but the facts are that women are more attracted to power. Young men can have power but generally it takes some getting. If you are like a serious fighter you will have power at a young enough age. If not and you have to wait? buck up, quit complaining.

  36. “One angle the anti old men commenters take, is saying that the argument in favor of old men getting to play for young men women due to their status, slants toward hypergamy.”

    Damned phone

  37. From the perspective of a father of a girl which I’m not, you can do worse than have a 51 year old White man with resources marry her.

    Other scenarios. The worst that can happen, besides mudsharking (cancer and death would be preferable) would be twenties squandered on “LTRs”.

    The best scenario is that her decent White (obviously) boyfriend knocks her up in high school and he’s from a good family of your culture.

    The conventional best case scenario: she gets a respectable degree in college, marries her up-and-coming college boyfriend… is this too much of a gamble to wager on?

  38. Knock up your girlfriend at 17.

    That’s the way forward.

    I would advise any young man of good character that same.

    It’s weird how the topic becomes framed as a generational conflict.

    Respectfully, and ironically, it’s the younger generations whose take on it is selfish. As it stands, they are privy to the available fertile women.

    No one is suggesting that they don’t get to make their claim.

    In any case, once a man has power, he doesn’t need to justify his position with arguments anyways; that’s what power means!

  39. enjoyed this thread from elk and Pa.

    I read the article and found it interesting. and I agree with elk that power is as power does, and the last thing we should want is affirmative action for mating. but wait! isn’t that what the beta male Patriarchy was??

    the old man-young woman pairing isn’t without it’s downsides. I’m an old guy gen x and my woman is a millennial. she embodies to some degree nearly every millennial stereotype. do you like sarcasm? get ready to drown in it. do you like watching rom-coms? looking at terrible “art”? being told that national geographic is “history”? talking about politics with someone who has the political mind of a twelve year old? you’re spending a lot of time together – these things do come up. there’s a lot of babysitting.

    on the other hand… chemistry. it’s interesting how the power of a hot young woman balances the power of a seasoned older dude PERFECTLY. no joke. somehow that chemistry and equality of power guides the relationship, and you figure out how to build bridges around the things you both like. and when you’re an older dude you likely REALLY like being around your younger-hotter-tighter girl and probably will find that some of your old “hobbies” really don’t do it for you anymore. i find myself doing a lot cooking because she likes to cook. normally I’d be off with my buddies or reading or spending more time working. do I miss that? nope.

    you will have to meet her parents, who are likely closer to your own age. awkward at first, yes but they’ll likely be happy that their girl is with someone who genuinely appreciates her and offers her the entire package, and will not waste her time. in this day and age that’s a rarity, and most parents know that. otoh, 18 is friggin young. he’s probably older or the same age as her parents. I wonder how that went.

    of course once there’s kids then all other bridges diminish by comparison. (I’m not quite there yet. soon.) that’s the obvious goal here. I found it interesting that she got knocked up right away and loves being a mom. and then knocked up again… right away. what are we missing? all those girls falling in love with their meaningless careers and missing what they truly wanted.

    the other thing – if you’re interested in keeping up your own vitality and you’re hitting middle age, starting a relationship with a woman your own age will pretty much guarantee that your diminishing life force will be diminished 10x faster. every time you look at her you’ll get depressed. you’ll swear the grim reaper is coming for you, hiding behind every closet door.

    otoh, when you look at your hotter-younger-tighter, you will want to double down on everything that makes you young and powerful. she FEEDS you. because fertility = future = life.

    young guys don’t know how really harness the power of woman. I know because I was young once and I couldn’t handle them. I could fuck them, have relationships with them, but I really like couldn’t utilize them fully. so my advice to young guys is to learn how they work. humble yourself. don’t try to impress them. find out what makes them TRULY tick. they are powerful for a reason. figure out how to harness that power. don’t try to weaken them to make yourself feel more powerful. use their power to attract powerful men to learn how to make YOURSELF more powerful. it’s not just about knocking them up – that’s easy enough to do. you need to know how to utilize them and utilitize them well.

  40. The conventional best case scenario: she gets a respectable degree in college, marries her up-and-coming college boyfriend… is this too much of a gamble to wager on?

    Let’s see … out of my close college friends, five married their LTRs (two later divorced). One found a girl close to graduation and married her, they are still around. The last one got dumped by his LTR in grad school (both in same department, ugh awkward) but quickly got together with a new girl and married her. They haven’t divorced either. Also two girls ummm made their rounds through all unattached friends, did not find LTRs but pretty quickly got married to other dudes after graduation.

    So all in all, it looks from this sample like college actually is a good place to get married. Of course, this was a while ago, but structurally you do get to meet many high-quality potential mates for a few years and (hint to the freshmen) you probably won’t see anything like this selection once you graduate.

    The drawback of college in this respect is you tend to delay reproduction for four years or so (unless you go to medschool or something, which makes you forever alone) and probably won’t have ranks and ranks of kids. Also, girls are hotter at the beginning rather than the end of college, so you’re getting married past her peak.

    As always, save yourself the pain and stay away from the feminists and suchlike.

  41. I wrote about this elsewhere recently: if you are a Christian father, raising Christian children, you need them to be fluent in Christian subculture.

    I won’t draw the story out too long, but in sum: when I became a Christian, in university, I started attending one of the campus Christian groups, thinking to myself, I’m a cool guy, I’ll get me a sweet Christian girl from one of these groups, and it’ll work out great.

    Except it didn’t. Because I was not conversant with the pop-Christian subculture, the girls who had been raised by good families to be marriage-minded were wary of me.

    The point is one PA has hammered repeatedly, which is the importance getting an early head start.

  42. The 51 year old man in the article looks vigorous and healthy. He will be 65 when their children become teenagers. There are disadvantages to such an age gap. Energy, the modicum of youthful optimism they’ll need from him if they’re to relate to each other.

    He’ll want to be the sweet grandfather, not the responsible father at that point.

    They best have several kids right away AND a large extended family nearby, either his or hers.

  43. — young guys don’t know how really harness the power of woman.

    They do and they dont. Not to TMI too much but at 22 with this one little minx I was a volcano of Game, pure natural instinct. One afternoon in the space of 15 minutes I had her blissfully postcoital, then in chest-rattling sobs about how she’s never ever again dating assholes like me as she’s getting dressed to go, but she couldn’t bring herself to leave so before you know it she runs back to bed and I’m soothing her and stroking her hair “shhh… you know you’re very special to me” and then we again… Four times that afternoon. Wild.

    No, I didn’t then have an older man’s appreciation of her young beauty and the kind of “life capstone” validation that fucking her would give a seasoned, accomplished man.

    But I did have a swagger like there is no tomorrow. There is no substitute for youth.

  44. When any organization decides to go “all inclusive,” it is, in fact, weaponizing the concept of “target market” to the exclusion of “white (s)upremacy.” Theoretically, there should be no issue. Separation is IN ORDER. Except, the perversion of Target Market signals the parasitic trans-formation of said organdyzation. “ALL-INCLUDED” memes total hegemony and/or white racial annihilation.

  45. “But I did have a swagger like there is no tomorrow. There is no substitute for youth.”

    many similar experiences. and, unfortunately, where my “harnessing” would begin and end. an afternoon. a week. a few months. then I’d get bored or she would upgrade (most likely to an older, more established guy) and I’d move on to the next one.

    an older guy has the wisdom and experience to know what he can accomplish with her by his side. not just for the afternoon but for the rest of his life and for future generations. he will not waste that opportunity the way a young guy will. he will lock it down, put a rock on it, and get busy building and/or expanding his empire.

    regarding being an old geezer parent… both he and his 18 year old will start to peter out at around the same time. he’ll be 76 when she’s 43, and he’ll still be able to run laps around her. but yes, he would be wise to build a support network that outlives him. but ANY family should do that, and how many actually do? how many parents just popped out a few kids and didn’t put any thought into how things ought to turn out later? how many squandered youth lives out there, regardless of the parents’ ages? millions upon millions.

    everyone is focused on the one generation in front of them. what about the next 10 gen-erations? when you take that perspective the ages of the parents and/or the relative age gap between the parents takes on less importance. you can achieve a lot in 20-30 years if you have your head screwed on straight. you can also accomplish very little in 60-70 years if your priority is simply to feel good and have a good time.

  46. I remember seeing the “pop Christian subculture” around in the city I lived in as a young man. They were attractive and had something going for them.

    This was Seattle in the 90s.

    I remember identifying the sub culture along those lines as described above, and thinking that they seemed to be positive people and enjoying life, and perhaps I could get on with them.

  47. I never reached out to those people, who were my age and seemed to be living better lives. It’s easy to put people you don’t know in a better light. Obviously you are only seeing a very limited section of things.

    However, they were TOGETHER and engaged in social activities that were positive, rather than ALONE and with social activities centered for the most part around drinking and drug use. The light versus the dark.

    The lost years. It’s a cliche to call them that or anything really, but I was fairly confused and depressed, during the experience of it. I felt trapped and unable to get onto a life track that was right.

    Now it’s just like whatever. It doesn’t really matter.

    The point that might be made I guess is that sometimes the advice to just Do the Right Thing and Make Responsible Choices and get a trade and save money and have children … that advice to me then would have been and was meaningless.

  48. I fixated on the past and “what went wrong” for a long time. It’s a cliche and now I know that everyone else has a similar and or more or less equal set of problems, and so there’s no reason anyone wants to hear about yours, unless there’s something relevant to take from it.

    Blah blah blah

    I am fairly grateful to be alive and take the responsibility seriously. Sometimes it seems that that’s enough responsibility as it is. I can hardly imagine how fathers might feel.

    And another angle to that is how often sons will disappoint. First of all, the issue of general health. How many people end up born with disabilities or whatever. And then the more typical heartbreaking disappointment of life …

    I had a gf who wasn’t gf. We had some bad sex but never actual sex by which I mean to unprotected completion. That’s an important distinction to make.

    How many women has your dick been in, versus
    How many vaginas have known the pleasure of your ejaculate?

    I speculated that for the average American my age and generation, the ratio on that is 1 to 10. That’s the ratio it has been for me.

    However trav777, aka unstoppable, aka Ethan Hunt, has a ratio of 1 to 1.

  49. Yeah I am fixating on that character. He’s always better than you. Or at least me.

    Hierarchy is totally a part of our thing, and I am not king of the hill, so it’s totally believable that a number of the characters that are frequent familiar commenters, are higher up the pyramid. So no problem there. I just question his posting style of always being the best.

    A “topper” is what that personality flaw used to be called. Not in some weird sex meaning; that was a colloquial expression for the guy who always one-ups ya; always has the better joke, the better accomplishment, the better story. Such people are a dime a dozen in fifth grade, and then less common in junior high. By hs they have generally gotten the message. But obv it’s a human character type and they are around and thus the familiar designation.

    trav777 is so awesome that he tops out iq tests, not to mention the 1-to-1 ratio as described above. And tutoring Brazilians in their own martial arts specialty, on the side and out of the goodness of his heart. Is this believable?

    There certainly exist people who have abundant talent and brilliance. God does not dole those things out equally. And so by the numbers, will some of the be braggarts on the internet?

    It’s well within the realm of possibility. If trav777 reads this post. He has mucho energy and knows many topics; strong dialectic, but problems using this available format to communicate which is its own test of intelligence.

  50. Yeah I know, what a gamma display.


    My criticism of “toppers” like what’s-his-name, is that anyone who is fully deployed in a challenging field, knows the limits of his own capabilities. All the best people openly acknowledge that they need HELP to accomplish their goals. See for example James Watson and his needing youthful mathematicians for his lab.


    My accomplishments in life don’t measure up to much. Most people’s don’t.

    The whole being accomplished thing, is its own can of worms. People are accomplished travelers and accomplished eaters. Accomplished money-makers, accomplished PUA players.

    Accomplished fathers?

  51. Derbyshire had just the right aphorism once. It’s a quote from some famous English writer, that a man despises himself who never went to sea and nor to battle.

    Who said that?

    Or in the alternative: A lesser son of greater sires — Theoden son of Thengel son of Fengel, on his deathbed

  52. That gf who wasn’t gf with whom I had the “pleasure” of incomplete sex. She went on and shortly thereafter, to have a son who is severely autistic. She was around 30 when she birthed him.

    He needs constant care and her life is quite difficult, due to that circumstance.

    If she was fated to have that son, I am glad he is not mine.

  53. Let me end this series, on another and better note, and re-recommend a book —

    The Edge of Forever, by Tom Morris, published 2010.

    I am not up on that contemporary literature scene anymore, and so it’s hard to know how much accolades this book is being given. A quick check on amazon might would answer that question, but as not knowing is half the fun …

    This book is absolutely on the bookshelf of great American books, along with

    Pirsig, both books
    Moby Dick, they say this is good book
    Tom Sawyer, also this one too
    that other book
    some other one
    yet another one
    and another still
    Blood Meridian, Cormac McCarthy

    Is that enough? Do books even matter anymore?

    It turns out the answer is yes they do. Because Edge of Forever is about cowboys. These are the real life characters and their real life life story that Daniel Boone was based upon.

    The style of the writing is fairly Hardy Boys, and not in the good way. It’s the story not the language that wants paid attention to. The language is fine “plain spoken” but sometimes it’s hard to believe that people weren’t as pretentious as they are now.

  54. The ‘topper’ is the guy that needs to be corrected. You know him right away by when you finish telling a cool story and as soon as you stop he says “That’s nothing! I …”

    I once called someone out on it. I just finished telling a cool story to a group of guys and the moment I finished, he started to launch into his. With some people, you can tell that “listening,” for them, is waiting impatiently for the other guy to stop talking so that he can talk.

    I told him “Whoa, hold tight. You’re gonna wait a minute and soak in the coolness of my story before you tell us your lame one.” I leveled with him in such an amusing way because he had an obnoxious habit of being a bad listener.

    There is a variant of the topper: the guy who Disqualifies & Amplifies what someone else just said. Example:

    Someone on Gab posted a great comment: “Next time Trump makes an address, he should be wearing a yellow vest in solidarity with the French protesters.”

    That was a good, apropos, thought provoking idea.

    But immediately, another person — a good guy but that was a churlish move — said something like “No, he should be wearing fake wounds in solidarity with people who were killed by illegal beaners.”

    You see the Disqualify & Amplify: he piggybacked on someone else’s excellent and well timed idea to amplify its genius to absurdity, then disqualified it with his own “better” idea.

  55. They do and they dont.

    I think it’s strictly accurate to say some do and some don’t. I have an abiding fascination with young men who instinctively “got it” at that age, in the same way as you might be awed by a pro football player or a Michaelangelo, it’s just like, how do you do that…

    I subscribe to the notion that youthful social awkwardness may be its own adaptation, as it prevents one from making stupid mistakes while young.

  56. — I subscribe to the notion that youthful social awkwardness may be its own adaptation, as it prevents one from making stupid mistakes while young.

    I agree with this. Brilliant observation in fact. It’s easy to forget that we’re adapted to subordinate ourselves to friendly authority. Young men to their fathers and father’s sympathetic peers, 14 year old boys to cool older teenagers, apprentices to masters, suitors to bride’s male relatives.

    A certain amount of social awkwardness comes across as due humility when you want your elders to take you under their wing. Think about how much now, as an adult man, you’re impressed by a kid who is a bit awkward and deferential to you, than by a cocksure loudmouth. The first one, you want to mentor. The second one, you want to take him down a notch on account of his unearned Pride.

    Alas, atomization promotes hyperindividualism in society… and the prerogative for Female Choice in mating, make this youthful awkwardness a liability. Thankfully, that’s an unstable system of incentives.

  57. @PA: Cool story, bro, let me tell you this one…


    A certain amount of social awkwardness comes across as due humility when you want your elders to take you under their wing.

    I never even thought about it that way, I meant it strictly sexually, where the socially awkward man who “grows into himself” and then gets married leaves no trail of broken relationships, etc. In the parlance of contemporary Western dating, you hear this term all the time, “baggage”, everyone has “baggage”, supposedly. I don’t, and couldn’t be happier about that.

  58. Speaking of youthful status and rank and hierarchies —

    High school, suburban America, the 80s.

    Our gang is underclassman, but with carriages so not complete nobodies. This upperclassman named Winston latched on.

    First of all the name itself. I like the name and it has regained some of its popularity but back then it was an oddball name and very much so. The kid himself had asperger’s. Back then there wasn’t that understanding of things and in any case, high school.

    His father was a professional class dentist and had money. The kid himself drove jacked four-wheel drives. But he didn’t rank due to his problem. He was legendary awkward case, the butt of many jokes.

    In any case he was friendly and wanted friends and generally prosocial, and he latched onto our clique for awhile. I was sympathetic and couldn’t really ‘get’ why he was a pariah. Money. Cars. Cool name. Socially ambitious.

    But we are driving around looking for something to do. Back then was a John Hughes movie and the scene was house parties.

    There was this upperclassman house party that he knew about and wanted us to go to, and we are all like uhhhh I don’t think that’s a good idea and but here’s the thing: for some reason we can’t say so.

    Looking back it’s like, I would have said: Winston, we don’t rank high enough in the school’s hierarchy, we don’t have enough status to go to this party. We all knew that instinctively but couldn’t say it.

    The language of the time “how cool you were” or what clique you were in. At this party were the advanced high level upperclassman cliques and we were not.

    But because of Winston we went anyways; and like a John Hughes movie …

    It wasn’t too humiliating but they made us know that we didn’t belong.

  59. Asperger’s. What is it?

    The simple answer is that it’s a lack of social intelligence, but as the comments above get to, social intelligence is something can be grown into. Some people grow into but some others like Winston are effectively socially retarded.

    If Winston didn’t insist on going to those parties, he wouldn’t have gotten the rep for being a pariah. Like I said he was not malformed physically and in fact was not bad looking. Also he was an aggressive and capable driver. “Where I come from” by which I mean place and time and a generation still connected to the 70s as opposed to gayer 80s; back then driving aggressively and well was still a thing that got you status and man points. Like hunting or shooting. The good old boys were one of the highest cliques. And they had trucks and would actually go four-wheeling. They weren’t good old boys, that woulda been too ironic. They were called country boys but they weren’t even called. They were trucker caps and shitkickers but generally not to school. They didn’t need a name, everyone knew who they were.

    As an aside I was an honorary member of that clique, at a modest rank and grade level.

    The point being: if this guy would have known about his awkwardness, he woulda just been another Joe. Instead he was Winston.

  60. They weren’t called good old boys, that woulda been too ironic.

    Truly though already then coalescing, incipient post irony cliques who did refer to them as good old boys. The editor of the school paper for instance, with her high intelligence and perceptiveness and sophisticated devices, woulda called them good old boys for sure, and expected her friends to get the joke.

    They wouldn’t have referred to themselves as such. Doing so woulda been weird.

  61. I hate to do this but am reposting that paragraph for edits:

    The good old boys were one of the highest cliques. And they had trucks and would actually go four-wheeling. They weren’t called good old boys, that woulda been too ironic. They were called country boys but they weren’t even called that. They wore trucker caps and shitkickers but generally not to school. They didn’t need a name, everyone knew who they were.


    They formed up a softball team in the citywide rec league, to play against the adult men who had their own teams. I don’t know what designation was the league that they played in, it might have been “B league” which is actually fairly serious stuff.

    The fireman and cops woulda played A league, the punters C league. C league woulda had co-ed teams.

    We were at practice, after school in the springtime senior year. They needed a name for their team and my good buddy, who played at their level but barely, suggested they Master Batters.

    Looking back I would have suggested “the Good Old Boys”.

    Neither of those suggestions woulda been took. They might would have gone with “the Muskies” or the Pistons. But even the Pistons might would be too metaphoric.

  62. The simple answer is that it’s a lack of social intelligence, but as the comments above get to, social intelligence is something can be grown into.

    I find it all very interesting because… I still feel like there are Holes. It’s like, I’m reasonably intelligent and I’ve LEARNED to navigate society, but I still sometimes feel as though there are Holes, as if I’m seeing through a net, while someone with a more intuitive grasp on social grace would not have this problem and would immediately see the whole picture.

  63. The modern living arrangement of suburbs and cars and cities, is not what we evolved in.

    We evolved the bulk of our evolution, is smaller close knit groups. In those groups people were known and Hierarchy was a part of it, and everyone had a place as an adult. Occasionally people would be cast out, but that was serious business.

    Modern life is lonely. Some people are more well adjusted than others. I have envy and resentment toward those who seem more easily socialized. On the other hand, it’s good to keep in mind that many people are less well adjusted.

  64. A weird thing happened today, I haven’t told anyone because it’s kind of suspicious activity. It is the god’s honest truth.

    I was driving to an AA meeting and on this side street by some low rent apartments was a backpack on the side of the road. It was approximately exactly three feet from the curbside and well removed from the entryway to the cheapo apartments.

    I stopped the truck and got out and looked around to see whether anyone was observing me, and went and got the backpack which was full and drove away. Sure enough it contained money and drugs.

    Not much of the first, and I didn’t recognize the second. I went to my meeting “upset” about walking into that karmic trap. After the meeting I went to another spot and went through the pack thoroughly and then returned it exactly where it was, on the side road in the snow.

    It would be a better story to recall what the prescription drug was called, but I do not recall, and made something of a conscious to not know. I don’t think it was a street drug, given the contents of the rest of the pack which were very prosaic.

  65. What was it called, that prescription … there were three bottles of the same prescription, two smaller ones mostly empty and one very large with maybe five hundred pills. All of them written for the same name which was Anglo but maybe mexican.

    It’s possible they were pain killers, I kinda wish I knew now, simply for the sake of the story. What else would they have been? who knows coulda been anything. They weren’t a familiar label to me, but I was never hooked on those or hip to that scene.

    My “drug of choice” was booze. If my previous post didn’t make clear, the contents of the pack were left intact, including the small amount of money. The pack also had an address that matched the apartments near where it was at. My conscious is clear, about how I handled it. Had there been more money I would have kept it and disposed of the rest. Or maybe I woulda been high on painkillers right now.

  66. Cursory research indicates they very likely they were street drugs.

    Diclofenac is a nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID). It works by blocking your body’s production of certain natural substances that cause inflammation. This effect helps to decrease swelling, pain, or fever.

  67. Drug addiction which includes alcoholism, doesn’t mix with our thing.

    In the same way that being morbidly obese, or being a sex addict.

    On the other hand some people? their lives include these things and they might can still have an effect to the good.

    The current thinking re alcoholism is that it “behaves as a disease”. What exactly that means I don’t presume to know but that’s what the experts say. It’s not a “political” opinion or derived for money. Though of course the institutions of treatment are beset of venality.

    I agree with that medical opinion and it comports with my experience. One’s executive functioning is overridden by compulsive behavior geared to pleasure seeking. I was an obnoxious drunk but never a lie or a cheat. A lot of crazy bad things happen. Being beat up by the police is no one’s idea of fun. They beat me pretty good one time. Apparently I was banging on the outside windows of a Popeye’s and wouldn’t shut up. Came to in restraints in the hospital, pissed myself and they let me out. In the middle of the night when the busses aren’t running and a ways from home, without so much as 20 bux in your pocket.

  68. Alcoholics Anonymous is a good resource for anyone who might want to look into it.

    The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. — Tradition 3 or 4 or 5

    Also it has open meetings for anyone else. And also some people latch into the scene, with other disorders that are not necessarily as clear cut as alcoholism, such as so-called sex addiction and food addiction.

    I don’t think that those things are in the same category, because they don’t alter one’s perception to nearly the same extent.

    The recovery scene being misused by degenerate sex addicts was covered in the famous movie House of Pain with Brad Pitt and Ed Norton. The Sopranos also treated that theme, about how the meetings can be a vehicle that people use to further their problems, similar to how prison works to reify criminal behavior. Such is life right? whatcha gonna do

    I was at a meeting just recently, and it’s mainly middle aged and older men. Two of my “bros” which two guys I might call friends, both felons. And in walks this hippy girl, 5 foot 11 and with dreads. By appearance a deadhead potsmoker, maybe raver. But slender and cute, and young. She sat right next to me and I vibed her appropriately. Haven’t seen here since though.

    It’s its own scene, and a good way to meet people. You go in there and say a prayer in sincerity, and thank God for another day with half a clear head and above ground.

  69. I had a going downtown on the train adventure today.

    Some nigger asked me for money and I faced him off. The longer version is he was intoxicated. He was not a big guy I coulda smashed him. I was offended to be asked for money. It’s an insult. I am not Richie Cunninghham and don’t appreciate the implication that I might be a sucker. He actually referenced the United Negro College Fund.

    My personality is not 100 per cent balanced. I raised my voice and faced him down, ended it saying “you came up to me” and he stepped back.

    But pleased to be keeping in mind: It’s a mistake to actually come to blows, or anything like that, if it can be avoided without an insult to your honor or whatever.

    It was a scene, to some small extent. There were people around. It was kind of intense. I am trying not to be such a broken down man anymore, but the reality is that there’s niggers everywhere, not to mention the other assholes, and it’s trying.

    The other people may have been vaguely impressed, that someone was not an NPC. There was a prison class White tough guy nearby with tattoos on his neck, who looked amused. He might have helped had anything happened. This is fairly how it went:

    — Are you asking me for money?

    — Why are you being [ nigger speak ]

    — The answer is no

    — It’s the UN College Fund

    — You came up to me …

    I felt like I handled it fairly well, but the flip side is that I am tired of it. Can’t even leave the house w/o someone getting in your face.

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