Divergent Senses

That’s when two of your senses, hearing and sight in this case, are pulled apart by equally powerful stimuli. It’s like a graphic composition in which two objects compete for dominance. Not what you want normally, “too much of a good thing” is real. Pulling your attention from one side, is the perfect rock song: the twelve-string strums, the chorus, the bridge, the lyrics. And drawing your eyes, is the perfect elf woman in the video.

YouTube commenters post about both unrequited and consummated love for the song’s namesake. Also, comments from people who were inspired by Boston’s song to name their daughter Amanda. Didn’t everyone have an adolescent thing for a girl that they connected with a popular song?

45 thoughts on “Divergent Senses

  1. Didn’t everyone have an adolescent thing for a girl that they connected with a popular song?

    I’m pretty sure I did, but I can’t remember anymore!

  2. –> I’m pretty sure I did, but I can’t remember anymore!

    Haha, I was just about to post the same thing, verbatim.

  3. Strange what people remember or forget from their formative years when it comes to interpersonal stuff.

    I remember guys I hit it off with as buddies during short-term assignments in the Army (as opposed to longer term friendships at my permanent duty stations), most vividly the situations we hang out or worked under, and their mannerisms and personalities. Would I recognize them now in a photo from that time? Probably not. Their names: almost completely forgotten.

    Girls from formative (teenage) years, ones I dated or had a thing for: yes. Names, faces, and the subjective stuff. Otherwise, I’ve gotten friend requests on facebook from female classmates whose name sounded familiar but I couldn’t for the life of me recall where I knew her from.

    PS Peterike: ongoing gratitude for tipping me off to the great drummer Clem Burke of Blondie. I watched a Top Ten rock/pop drummers video on YouTube yesterday and oddly, he wasn’t counted among them. Arguably, here are drummers who did make that particular Top 10 who were improperly on that list at Burke’s expense: Ringo Starr, drummer from Cream, maybe Phil Collins.

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  5. Wow that was exquisite. Women like that are why feminists are so hateful (see my earlier essay on pride and envy) and why the brown hordes invade us.

  6. I’ve never been a typical T&A man. What strike me are the remarkably female indicators of attractiveness that aren’t covered up by a bikini. Like collarbones. Hipbones. Slight ripple of ribs in certain poses. A long neck whose throat is discernible even when the head is turned to the side, causing stretched tendons to cast slight shadows. Back dimples and shoulder-blades. Long, sculpted calves. That spot at 3:26 where you can see her pectoral connected to her shoulder and making a concave pocket, because she’s neither flabby nor scrawny.

    I never cared for the style of music, but this song is perfect in this instance.

  7. — I’ve never been a typical T&A man.

    I’m a face-man. Always looked for that spark of intelligence in a woman’s eyes, be it giggly coquette, the serious oldest-sibling, anything that reveals a living soul underneath.

  8. A top-notch girl will evoke divergent senses through her presence alone. An insatiable ‘stillness’ in the eyes, crescent moon-bound and poignant like Rodin’s sculpture. While in the voice (and even in her silences), a fine-drawn ‘hopefulness’ via enigmatic transitions a la Giacinto Scelsi’s music, caked whimsically to the chromosphere’s unfettered foresight. Between that perceptual divergence one must wade toward her; past the water snakes and cattails and blithely into her sleepwalking effectuations.

  9. Arguably, here are drummers who did make that particular Top 10 who were improperly on that list at Burke’s expense: Ringo Starr, drummer from Cream, maybe Phil Collins.

    Yeah. I think Blondie’s music just isn’t seen as “serious” enough when it comes to drummers. Ringo, a decent drummer but no more, of course has the penumbra of the Beatles, so gets ranked way higher than he should. Phil Collins… I’ve always hated his music, so really as a drummer I don’t know from him. But Ginger Baker from Cream is actually pretty amazing. Still, Clem Burke tends to get dismissed, kind of like the drummer for the Ramones. People who vote for “best drummer” tend to like the big bish-bash guys from metal bands and the like.

  10. Anglin on France and Macron:

    Without an organized idea beyond “screw this prissy faggot weirdo,” and no leaders, there isn’t really an ability to push a revolutionary agenda.

  11. On the video that Camlost posted to the other thread, of those Utah people escaping in their car from out of Africa, and when confronted by the machete wielding niggers jumping out from the roadblock, their initial response was to put the car in reverse and back up.

    What the fuck is that about. Even in the middle of Africa there’s an instinct not to run over people.

    Such instinct, which is essentially the taboo that most of us have against killing others, is put to good effect by street protesters here in America. See Portland. See uh, Charlottesville. Except in that case …

  12. The one thing about Charlottesville that hasn’t had too much focus, EVEN FROM OUR SIDE, is that Fields is not right in the head.

    Initially when the story broke, back a long time ago, it was part of the story that Fields had mental issues. IF I am recalling correctly, people were kicking around “schizophrenia”. Without even getting into the question of what is mental health; to my impression Fields is not right in the head.

    Yeah it’s a given that most of us aren’t. People who have it together especially among his age cohort, are the exception. No offense meant to youngers. But even considering that, Fields looked out of it.

    Apparently he got beat up in jail, and at trial was a shell.

    It seems relevant; obviously his “defense” “team” would not have used that angle to his advantage, as they used no others. Maybe it could be relevant in an appeal.

  13. Ginger Baker from Cream is regarded as the best rock and roll drummer of his generation. That generation.

    For the man himself though he was more a jazz drummer. As most will be a aware, there’s a whole thing about jazz drummers looking down on rock and roll drummers, which whole thing was featured prominently in the recent hipster movie about the drummer in New York aspiring to do well.

    There were some good discussions about what is drumming, in response to that film, at Sailer’s. How goes the classic joke: What do you call the guy who is always hanging around musicians? Is drumming even music?

    A recent trivia question at Caribou, for their 10 cent discount, asked what was the oldest instrument. I answered the drum, but they said the answer was the flute. I called bullshit.

  14. There is a famous documentary about Mr Baker. He was quite the legend; he had a disagreeable personality. Beyond just the usual being an asshole.

    His manliness physiognomy score is like 4 SD’s to the right. Which seems to correlate a little bit with the ginger thing.

    He took a black woman while he lived in Africa and raised polo ponies. It seemed to be sad and lonely existence.

  15. — “their initial response was to put the car in reverse and back up. What the fuck is that about.”

    Good larger point, but they had to back up to roll up the windows before driving forward.

  16. “Anglin on France and Macron:

    Without an organized idea beyond “screw this prissy faggot weirdo,” and no leaders, there isn’t really an ability to push a revolutionary agenda.”

    that’s the issue of our time. what’s the new narrative?

    there’s a classic self-trope that goes something along the lines of ‘if you don’t have a clear goal don’t expect to have any kind of success’, or something along those lines.

    until someone or something comes along that says what we’re supposed to create through rahowa, or yellow vests, or whatever, that’s BETTER and more foolproof than whatever came before, then I doubt anything will change.

    so far the only narratives I here are basically “we need to go back to having our own countries, like in 1950 when everything was so perfect” with no explanation or plan of how to prevent letting them go to rot … AGAIN…. just go back to the past. and that’s supposed to happen post infinity birth control, nukes, tech, social media, etc.

    maybe the change starts with small scale protests. I dunno. hopefully someone will come along with something inspiring for humanity to do with their time here. burning things and turning over cars…. while the puppermasters continue with their puppeteering.

    if the protesters get strong enough and seize power, they will need help from inside and outside sources in order to run the country. banks, weaponry, airline regulation, shipping, border control.

    they might succeed in sending back every last African, and maybe they will go down the line and do a purification of the gene pool. to do so they would need to be making deals with people in power. and then what? France for the French? Germany for Germans? where will they draw the line? DNA tests? I just don’t see this going anywhere.

    the future is still unknown. I think that’s the lesson here. we ARE going back to they past. we’re going back to the uncertainty of the future that our ancestors lived with for hundreds of thousands of years. maybe that will bring us closer to God. knowing that we don’t know shit about where this is all headed. cool.

  17. “burning things and turning over cars…. while the puppermasters continue with their puppeteering.”

    …is nothing new. rage against the closest thing in front of you, but ignore the tedious multi-generational work of controlling the narrative.

    world war 2… that, in my mind, was the highest achievement of the old, blue-pill narrative. destroy everything and call it victory. but yeah, sure, let’s go back to that. sounds great.

    weird times. again, embracing the unknown might be the only way forward. I have no idea what that looks like. maybe we don’t need to do anything. nature might show us our humble place in the universe soon enough.

  18. A beautiful girl (probably closer to 20 or 24 than to 16) and a favorite song, from Boston’s Third Stage album (second only to their Greatest Hits, where the song is also featured.) The song More Than A Feeling also means something special, as it was playing on a Top-40’s station the first time I took a car over 100 mph, on my way to see the girl below:

    My “adolescent thing” connected to a [not particularly] popular song:

    I married her. We’re more happily married now than ever, and despite 40 intervening years this song still evokes the same emotions as it did back then.

    Adults often denigrate “adolescent romance,” but in reality if you’re right for each other there is no more powerful foundation for a lifetime of wonder than to find each other at 15 to 17. My sons didn’t find this, but I hope my grandkids might someday.

  19. Plumpjack, the world goes by itself. We’ve spent so long in the conceited delusions of our own grandeur that people generally believe we master fate and reality.

    Nope. We are of the world, not above it. We don’t make the rules. We don’t fly the plane.

    Never have humans existed more deeply in a fog of unreal beliefs. There will be consequences. But I hope that those who at least realize this will avoid the deer-in-headlights problem that gets larger numbers of fools culled from the human herd. We read of the horrors that befall all sorts of folks, but we should remember that few of them had their eyes open to begin with.

  20. Suburban_elk, re-look at that video. Unless the car is full of men with guns (and meat-eater levels of knowledge how to use them in hard situations), Job One was keeping the vehicle moving. If they had lost control and gotten stuck, and were unarmed (as is almost certain) they were dead.

    The road was HORRIBLE. One tiny misstep and they’d get hung on a boulder or drop a tire into a rut too deep to escape on posi-traction alone. Getting stuck in a FWD is a heck of a lot easier than most people think.

    This is why I wouldn’t be caught dead in a place where (1) that can happen and (2) I can’t be armed to the whazoo. But even Robbie Leatham himself would avoid that gig even if he was packing his favorite racegun.

  21. Re France: The CAC 40 is still near its higher boundary of the last 18 years’ trading range. This is not a place from which war and revolution of significance occur. On the other hand, what we’re seeing today could easily be the foreshadow of the kind of social events destined to occur if and when the CAC 40 declines and then gets to or below its support level.

    I hate to get all technical, but there are essentially no examples in history when a revolution occurs when stocks are high. Peace and high-priced stocks assort together and war and low-priced stocks assort together because they emanate from the same cause: social mood. Neither France’s nor the USA’s social mood is in a place where major revolts occur.

    I still await a (-80%, +150%) times four iterations (which nets to a -98%) move in the stock market (while the bond market burns to ash) in the USA, and should that forecast ever come to pass, oh HELL yes, there will be war and revolution in its wake.

  22. I rewatched the action part of the Out of Africa video, and my armchair opinion remains that they truck they were in never should have been put into reverse. There looked to be a clear enough path forward, to the right of the blockade.

    However the boolean variable is that they got away without a scratch —> total victory

    There is a youtube video of an old man in an Internet cafe in America, this is maybe five years old. He is a White Boomer, or maybe older even. Some nog goes into the cafe to do an armed robbery and Boomerman shoots him dead.

    And then in the comments there’s all these internet tough guys analyzing his “form” and shooting stance and blah blah blah. It’s like ffs peanut gallery, here’s the deal: the old man shot the guy dead and no one else was hurt: he gets an A+

  23. I look back at my life with tremendous regret. It’s all a coulda been

    I try not to blame myself. Or whatever.

    But the point is, ‘the Message’ so to speak, which can’t be done justice in this internet comment form, is that our whole mentality was wrong, for us people growing up then. It’s like fuck — even the Chads who were having frequent conjugal relations with the cheerleaders WERE NOT IMPREGNATING THEM and going on to have families with them!

    Pretty much ZERO out of Three Hundred Girls in my hs class, got pregnant. Or scratch that; god only knowns how many got pregnant. But pretty much not one of them, had a kid.

    Why weren’t we pairing off at that age when hormones were really active?

    For what it’s worth, the girl who in my case ‘fit the bill’ of the original post — DID end up marrying to her high school sweetheart. It wasn’t me. It was an acquaintance, and incidentally someone whom I respected. He is an ER doctor now. They are very much UMC beautiful people. I spent the night with said girl once however, and with much touching, at a time when they were on the outs, but did not give her the bone. I will spare you the rest of the story …

  24. I ranked highly in school. The aforementioned chick with whom I spent the night “cuddling” and not fucking — the cringe of it, the cringe of it, the cringe — (I am over it now; it was a long time ago) — this aforementioned twat, was a top-tier girl.

    She was a rich bitch and Captain of the Flags, and blah blah blah. When my friends found out I spent the night with her but we didn’t do it, they knew that something was wrong.

  25. The world moves quickly. Right now people are doing things. Even men, right now.

    The world goes by with or without you.

    Currently beneath betwixt and between Shit McShit jobs, here in this gig economy. It’s pretty great (not really).

  26. I found out later much later, that all those cute horse girls were just a-waitin for us all to bust a move on em.

    I ran into the original farm girl (literally in her case: fifth generation pumpkin farmers), at the garden shop as it happened, and this girl was the masturbation fantasy of all of us, at a certain point circa 1984. She told me in so many words, that they were all waiting. And not just for me, obv. Waiting for all of us to step up and give them the Vagina Adventure of Their Lives

    How many of them got that vagina adventure?

  27. The first time I stuck it in, it felt ok but it wasn’t actually all that much. Nb4 I have a normal big white dick. It measures just shy of seven. Ok six-and-a-half.

    The point being, I was painfully aware, on a subconscious level, that something was wrong. That something was missing. After that first night, problems arose. Or didn’t, as it were. Said problems utterly destroyed my romantic inclinations and confidence, and consequent sex expression. From which only now am I partially “recovered”.

    Hats off, pun intended, to all the swinging dicks who are un-phased with their stripped out denuded American style shafts.

    In my opinion however, it’s not actually to anyone’s credit, to be completely un-phased by that diminishment and modification. More sensitive people have their value in life too.

  28. It’s like trying to play the piano with one hand. Or the better analogy might even be one finger. You can do it. You really can. In fact Jerry Lee Lewis frequently did one-finger runs. But he’s Jerry Lee Lewis Note to self: Was the Killer stripped out and clipped? Find out.

    The otherwise better piano players, would be MORE inclined to discouragement.

  29. Unless the car is full of men with guns (and meat-eater levels of knowledge how to use them in hard situations)

    That’s a good point. For to be a skilled merc, good luck on that without lotsa mozza training and practice.

    Like with using any tools. That was point I was trying to make in regard to the Vegas shooting by Paddock, by way of the Underwater Welder meme. At lot of commenters were all like evaluating the likelihood of Paddock being the shooter, with the assumption that once he gets the hardware into position, he’s good to go and it’s a turkey shoot.

    That’s not the case at all. Deploying all that ordnance, how likely is it, to go according to plan? There’s always problems that come up and have to be worked around.

    I don’t buy that there 50 or however many casualties in Vegas to begin with, and if there were, the lone gunman theory is a stretch-and-a-half. It would have to have been a highly trained specialist, not some weirdo real estate gambler who buys guns on the side.

    I shared a true life funnytime story about using tools and how the hand-eye get developed and deployed. It’s a good Red Zone theme. Using hand tools as simple as pliers and a hammer is itself a skill. If one doesn’t develop those skills, then they are not available in the case of an emergency, say for instance you need to kill a rat.

    The last mammal I deliberately took the life out of. It was a mole in the compost bin that got forked on a tine on accident. The terrible situation was that it was screaming so loud (no kidding) that my adrenaline got going, the dog was going crazy, and I froze for two or three seconds, then instincts took over and I grabbed the shovel to hand and with two perfectly executed thrusts, removed it from the tine and severed its head.

  30. The Underwater Welder meme is a theme I was working to develop, after hearing for the literally 50th time, from some struggling youth looking to go out and become a man, and not really knowing where to start.

    This sympathetic youth, this co-White struggler, read somewhere that “underwater welding” pays 500 but an hour and not to mention to sexy swimsuits. And next thing you know he’s got a plan.

    Which is great, but the thing is, the joke which may not work this second time around but the point remains! is that the predilection for the specific trade of underwater welding, the predilection itself would reveal that the young man in question is not super duper familiar with hard core blue collar hands-on work, because there’s literally a thousand other jobs which are equally dangerous and manly, and if said young co-ethnic were of a background to do said jobs, would know about them, instead of this vague dreamy notion of underwater welding.

    nb4 I have had acquaintance of two underwater welders, in addition to the hubby of our tomato grower out East, and they were all that. One of them was working for cartels in Miami and removing packages from the underside of big ships in the ports. He ended up getting away from that, which was a good idea.

  31. At least from my perspective, Elk, T. M. I. T……M……I……!!!

    With regard to the SA vid, etc., and the fact that the USA is awash in firearms and those who own them, we might recall that for whitey there’s no quarter. Three hundred murders of blacks by blacks will go unsolved in Chicago in 2018 alone, but if one (1!!) was a white killing a black, it would be investigated to the nth degree and if there were the tiniest *shred* of a chance that it could be spun as Evil White Guy Kills Innocent Black Angel, a tractor-trailer-sized book will be thrown at whitey. I’m quite certain SA is no different.

    The only people whites are allowed (if not encouraged) to kill are themselves, particularly if they’re white and over the age of 40. Even if carrying a 15 lb armory, prudence counsels doing violence to black attackers only if utterly cornered.

    There are explicit, easily-found examples of whites being charged (or threatened with being charged) with a crime for shooting someone with a knife, or when a mob was attacking them (you know, the “can’t shoot someone armed ‘only’ with the fourth most lethal weapon(s), fists and feet” theory.) Those boys with the machetes were just trimming the shrubs on their way to Johannesburg Junior College, after which they were scheduled to volunteer at a homeless shelter before starring in their own rap concert.

  32. T……M……I……!!!

    It goes both ways though. Every time I hear about someone’s happy marriage …

  33. It took me some time to figure out that it wasn’t my fault. I carried that cross around — the cross of Erectile Dysfunction — for a long time.

    If perhaps among the dozens of therapists I had to deal with in the course of this life, had there been just even only one of them, with enough perspicacity wisdom and sympathy to ask and explore the simple and obvious question of why I wasn’t pair bonded or sexual intimate with a female partner — that mighta helped. Just a thought!

    But not even a single one, professional or friend or relative, or even anonymous internet wise guy, had the requisite perspicacity sympathy or wisdom, to suggest that maybe not everyone is ok with having a half dick. Go figure!

    Now with the internet, people can talk to each other. I like to think that someone may benefit from the relating of my experience.

    I corresponded recently over youtube, on which I use my real name and handsome face, with a poor 20-something White youth, who had half his glans penis cut off in a “botched circumcision”. I told him that a “successful” circumcision could do just as much damage, as it is a source of shame and humiliation.

  34. I told him that a “successful” circumcision could do just as much damage, as it is a source of shame and humiliation.

    If I said exactly that, that was a mistake because it’s not true. Every bit of one’s genitals is a good thing to have, and that poor fool lost more than most of the other babies.

    It’s topical in the sense of the question, how did your love life work out, which is what the original post reminded of.

    Also and however; the larger topic of male genital diminishment aka circumcision is generally frowned upon and NOT treated, even especially in the Dissident Right. Every time it comes up, it is brushed over and off.

    In a sense that’s not a bad thing, because doing so can be considered an adaptive response by people who are having to deal with things as best they can. AND it’s a fact that thinking that you are diminished or mutilated — just the mere thinking of that — is not good for one’s confidence and thus results.

  35. Deter, Elk: that recent one I wrote, “knock up and then marry your high school girlfriend at 17 and get both of your families to help” wasn’t just an exercise in fun blogging. I truly friggin meant it. As in: DO IT, BOYS.

    I generally avoid blogging about my private life but that Thanksgiving post ended on a personal anecdote. An NRx blogger I wasn’t familiar made a respectful counterpoint to something I said there, which to him came off as my self-satisfied dismissal of the harsh realities that young men are now facing. That was a misunderstanding of my attitude, as evidenced by the very fact that I wrote the aforementioned “At 17” article.

  36. At 17…. Maaann, when i think of the opportunities I didn’t grab

    I remember when I was 17 going on 18 there was a cute blonde who was 15 at the time annoyingly pestering me to hang out. Her brother was in the Air Force and I was a senior cadet NCO. She akways wanted to talk about military stuff so naturally I kept selectively ignoring her politely and then she faded away.

    About two years later she came in to my work and she’d blossomed into a dead ringer for Kim Basinger. I was floored. Man we could have made so many beautiful white baybeez together.

    But I was such a dumbass at 18, oh well. Mid forties and no prospects except NPC women. Makes ya want to cry sometimes.

  37. At some point it becomes a simple decision, on whether or not to marry and have children, or at least to make deliberate steps in that direction.

    This woman wants me to stick my dick in her. It’s hard to imagine her perspective in wanting such a thing, but so it goes.

    It might be criticized as a prissy perspective, but past the age of 35 or 40 or 45 or whenever, and obv it’s a gradual decline not a sudden stop, but eventually sex that isn’t intimate and pair bonded, is not part of a healthy lifestyle.

  38. At some point it becomes a simple decision

    At some point it simply becomes a decision


    Because it’s not a simple decision from the perspective of middle age. Which is the reason I agree with PA’s position, and assert the same more vehemently, that it is a mistake to put off family formation.

    Some social science spergs like to haggle over the data, and have insisted that in the Old Days that mid-20s was actually the standard for marriage and a woman’s first child. That seems unlikely. The average for White women having their first pregnancy to term, over the last say thousand years, has to have been around 20 at the most. On the other hand maybe not.

    Why aren’t more high end people having children. It’s an old saw.

  39. There’s famous commenters at CH who are themselves not young, who are all into slamming the stewardesses or for that matter women from clubs and bars and wherever the hell else. trav777 for instance.

    Do these men, these players, these what-have-you; do they wear condoms when banging their dicks against these random (not random) females?

    If they do wear condoms, what’s the point? and if they don’t wear condoms, how likely can the consequences be avoided.

    I don’t see how the case can be made, for those kinds of sexual habits.

    For my part I used to “hit the street” and solicit cheap blowjobs but it was degenerate.

  40. Chakrates, in my view NAxALT is a function of individualism (the Western disease.) I had it in spades, once. I knew (know) several lovely black people, including a previous manager whose “th” diphthong was the ghetto “f” (wif dis and wif dat) despite graduating from a nice Midwestern private college in (probably) the late ’80’s/early ’90’s. I enjoyed working for her as much as I loathed the tall, black, arrogant asshole black manager whose meteoric rise through that Fortune 50 employer’s ranks was the purest Affirmative Action bilge on Earth.

    NAxALT is the cogdis resulting from the personal vs the cultural. One black among whites is either a mimic or a curiosity (mostly harmless either way, until…) but put any “x” among his/her own crowd and their inborn, genetically-determined culture emerges. Two cultures in one place yields warfare, either the honest and overt kind or the toxic stew of patronizing altruism met with open parasitism and predatory violence. Thus do the superior destroy themselves.

    Suburban Elk, on the Internet (or in person) I only share my selling points. In person, others can “kick my tires” to look for the defects themselves. On the Internet no such opportunity exists, so some people are offended by my natural-alpha appearance. I’ve been blessed by some good fortune, and by some real obstacles, so I’m an alloy like everyone else. What I write is real, but I don’t give anyone the full story (and I’m still discovering that for myself, here now qualified for AARP.)

    Sex is complicated. The astonishing beauty of a proto-woman (ages 15-19 or so) is nature’s blinding bait. Since Ortho sold the first oral contraceptives we’ve been trapped between dulling the raw exhilaration of a young woman’s beauty (OC’s make them puffy, dry and moodier) in an attempt to prolong access to it, or accepting that the utter ecstasy of loving that blinding beauty will last mere months before she gets pregnant and the over-subscribed, over-worked, pressure-cooker of the parenting/household management stage-of-life takes over.

    Sex with a late-teen girl is Nature’s BAIT. The attempt to turn it into a RECREATIONAL LIFESTYLE is an impossibility, but it’s the lie on which the entire pick-up artist, hookup-culture frame is based. Two (and only two) paths emerge from the teenage years. One goes straight into the busiest time of any man’s or woman’s life (raising kids while keeping the wheels on your marital relationship and avoiding homelessness.) The other goes to a place I’m glad I’ve avoided so far.

    There is no 3rd alternative, the one where the obsessive, all-consuming, addictive behavior of youthful lust can be bottled and uncorked whenever the mood hits.

  41. There’s famous commenters at CH who are themselves not young, who are all into slamming the stewardesses or for that matter women from clubs and bars and wherever the hell else. trav777 for instance.

    I wouldn’t believe a thing about anything from any commenter at CH.

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